Religion Of Peace Update

[Vistor233]

Keysar Trad, vice-president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, said: "It is certainly a disgrace to our community that people who were born to a Muslim family would commit such heinous crimes." But he went on to say it was "rather unfair" that the rapists' ethnicity had been reported "because these boys themselves have completely disaffiliated themselves from their culture or their religion".

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...185124700.html

Btw, from the news stories I've been able to find, the rationalizations offered by the perpetrators are generic and fairly typical of these kinds of criminals.

[David]

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks

* Richard Kerbaj
* October 26, 2006

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.
In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: "If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame ... but a man should be able to control himself". He said if a woman is "covered and respectful" she "demands respect from a man". "But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself."

Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence.

Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was "normalising immoral sexual behaviour" by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims.

"It's basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food," he said.

"But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action."

Revelation of the mufti's comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. "Those who don't respect their women are not true Muslims."

"There's a small percentage found among all religions, but we don't recognise ours as Muslims."

Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali's remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community.

"They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any consideration."
SOURCE

[Vistor233]

Now if only we could find a news story in which a contemporary perpetrator claims to have been inspired by the life of Muhammad, his character, or his code of war ethics.

[David]

They are also, unfortunately, consistent with the example of Muhammad, Islam’s prophet, as I show in my new book The Truth About Muhammad. The Qur’an tells men: “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess” (4:24) -- that is, slave girls who are considered the spoils of war. All too often in Western countries, particularly in Europe’s restive Muslim enclaves, young Muslim men have understood this as permitting the rape of non-Muslim women who venture out uncovered -- in accord with Shahid Mehdi’s statement.



What’s more, in traditional Islamic law rape cannot be established except by the testimony of four male witnesses who saw the act, as stipulated by Qur’an 24:4 and 24:13. Consequently, it is even today virtually impossible to prove rape in lands that follow the dictates of the Sharia. Unscrupulous men can commit rape with impunity: as long as they deny the charge and there are no witnesses, they get off scot-free, because the victim’s account is inadmissible. Even worse, if a woman accuses a man of rape, she may end up incriminating herself. If the required male witnesses can’t be found, the victim’s charge of rape becomes an admission of adultery. That accounts for the grim fact that as many as seventy-five percent of the women in prison in Pakistan are, in fact, behind bars for the crime of being a victim of rape.[i] Several high-profile cases in Nigeria recently have also revolved around rape accusations being turned around by Islamic authorities into charges of fornication, resulting in death sentences that were only modified after international pressure.[ii]



In light of all this, al-Hilali’s remarks should not be surprising -- but they should continue to be cause for concern. For they illustrate the fact that the clash of civilizations isn’t just taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places where the warriors of jihad are fighting today. It is taking place right at home, in Western countries where our deeply-held cultural values are being subjected to an increasingly forthright and assertive challenge. If we do not defend them now, it is those who agree with Sheikh al-Hilali who will determine the mores of the future.

[i] See Sisters in Islam, “Rape, Zina, and Incest,” April 6, 2000, http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersin...es/sdefini.htm.



[ii] See Stephen Faris, “In Nigeria, A Mother Faces Execution,” www.africana.com, January 7, 2002.
SOURCE

[Vistor233]

Originally Posted by David

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious

Yes, moderate Islam has a leadership problem.

[Vistor233]

What’s more, in traditional Islamic law rape cannot be established except by the testimony of four male witnesses who saw the act, as stipulated by Qur’an 24:4 and 24:13.

Importantly, there are Moslem countries that do not insist on such a evidentiary standard to convict.

[David]

Rapists aren't going to say I did it for the Prophet Mohammed. But emulating the Prophet is called for. This from a Muslim who like others we have spotlighted, has had it.
SOURCE

Muhammad himself raped the captured women in his raids. Rayhana and Safiya from the Jewish tribes of Banu Quraiza and Banu Nadir were the shares of the Prophet and were allotted to him before other Muslim warriors could get their share of their sex slaves.

[Vistor233]

Originally Posted by David

Rapists aren't going to say I did it for the Prophet Mohammed.

What would they say that would reveal a religious inspiration for their actions?

Muhammad himself raped the captured women in his raids.Rayhana and Safiya from the Jewish tribes of Banu Quraiza and Banu Nadir were the shares of the Prophet and were allotted to him before other Muslim warriors could get their share of their sex slaves

Do we even know whether a typical Musim studies the life of Muhammad?

Btw, since slavery was the necessary condition to condone it, what does that mean for Islamic countries that have banned slavey? It seems to me that what is being debated here is made moot by legal progress banning slavery. This highlights the point I made about zeitgeist. The Islamophobes keep searching history in an attempt to make their case against Islam and ignore any recent developments.

[David]

These rape rates in Europe are recent developments. Tied directly to Muslim immigration. The Swedish City of Malmo is awash in this crime. It has become a Muslim enclave.More HERE

[David]

If it is true that Muslims should emulate the Prophet Mohammed , as is chronicled in the Hadith, and he was a pedophile and rapist...

[David]

I urge our readers to view this video
HERE

[Vistor233]

Originally Posted by David

If it is true that Muslims should emulate the Prophet Mohammed , as is chronicled in the Hadith, and he was a pedophile and rapist...

Which Hadith?

[rachel]

Importantly, there are Moslem countries that do not insist on such a evidentiary standard to convict.

Oh goody! That makes the ones that do o.k.

Btw, since slavery was the necessary condition to condone it, what does that mean for Islamic countries that have banned slavey?

Oh goody! Since only sex slaves were raped with permission, that made it o.k.

The Islamophobes keep searching history in an attempt to make their case against Islam and ignore any recent developments.

Well, Islamoapologists constantly point back in history to the Ottoman empire in an attempt to make their case for Islamic tolerance, so I guess history is only relevant by you if it backs up your bias?

By the way, I don't know about anyone else, but I am not ignoring any of the recent developments in terms of Islam...the terrorism, the murders, the rapes, the oppression, the threats and the violence...I'm paying attention to them all.

[David]

Hamas: “The extermination of the Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds.”

by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - May 3, 2007

The extermination of Jews is Allah’s will and is for the benefit of all humanity, according to an article in the Hamas paper, Al-Risalah. The author of the article, Kan'an Ubayd, explains that the suicide operations carried out by Hamas are being committed solely to fulfill Allah’s wishes. Furthermore, Allah demanded this action, because “the extermination of the Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds.”

The killing of innocent Jews by terrorist attacks is portrayed as Allah’s plan for the benefit of humanity.
SOURCE

[Vistor233]

Originally Posted by rachel

Oh goody! That makes the ones that do o.k.

Not at all. But the fact that some people are unwilling to recognize the importance of changing historical context does suggest a bias. Also, for someone to persist in gross generalization despite the facts can make them look very foolish - like they don't know anything about the people or the culture they are making generalizations about. It's sort of like attaching value to ignorance.

Oh goody! Since only sex slaves were raped with permission, that made it o.k.

You missed the point again (surprise). The theme that is being debated is obsolete in an era where there has been legislation that made slavery illegal. You continue to ignore this point.

Well, Islamoapologists constantly point back in history to the Ottoman empire in an attempt to make their case for Islamic tolerance

Do you have any links for me?

I am not ignoring any of the recent developments in terms of Islam...the terrorism, the murders, the rapes, the oppression, the threats and the violence....

None of which you are able to link to Islam!

...I'm paying attention to them all.

And I expect you will interpret them according to your bias.

I will restate my request to you yet a third time: show me the connection between the crime and the religion. Or just admit that the views you have expressed are groundless or irrational.

[David]

AFP
SOURCE
Nine Muslims to stand trial over Australia terror plot

Tue May 1, 12:16 AM ET

Nine Muslims accused of stockpiling chemicals and explosive detonators have been ordered to stand trial on charges of planning terror attacks in Sydney, Australian court officials said Tuesday.

Magistrate Michael Price on Monday ruled that the men must stand trial after they were arrested last year in Australia's largest-ever counter-terrorism operation, a court official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

"The nine were committed to stand trial in the Supreme Court and will appear in that court on June 1, 2007," the official said.

The nine appeared in March in a magistrates court in Penrith, west of Sydney, under a heavy blanket of security to allow Price to establish if they had a case to answer.

They were charged with planning terrorist strikes in Australia's most populous city, Sydney, reportedly including the bombing of its Lucas Heights nuclear reactor.

They were arrested in Sydney in November 2005 as part of a crackdown by security services in which a total of 18 Muslims were detained there and in Melbourne.

The nine suspects had allegedly been urged by their leader, an Islamic cleric, to inflict "maximum damage" in Australia for the sake of jihad, or holy war.

At the time of their arrest, police alleged group members attended jihad training camps, stockpiled chemicals and detonators to make explosives and planned a "large-scale terrorist attack".

A court last September ordered 11 men to stand trial on terrorism charges.

The prosecutor in that case said the men were strongly inspired by Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and one of the accused, cleric Abdul Nacer Benbrika, had urged the others to wage holy war and wreak havoc.

They were arrested days after the government passed tough new anti-terrorism legislation making it easier for police to prosecute suspects involved in the early stages of planning attacks.

Prime Minister John Howard pushed the legislation through parliament after expressing concern that Australia could face attacks similar to the deadly London transport bombings in July 2005.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vistor233

Which Hadith?

Yuck! Sexualizing a prepubescent girl, even having to bring her dolls along.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).



--------------------------------------------------
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
~~~~~~~
Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 8

Chapter 10: IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO GIVE THE HAND OF HIS DAUGHTER IN MARRIAGE EVEN WHEN SHE IS NOT FULLY GROWN UP


-------------------------------------------------
Book 008, Number 3309:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

{Appearantly 'A'isha had an illness and had lost her hair, which appearantly was the reason why the consummation of her marriage was delayed until her hair grew back.}
----------------------------------------------------------
Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.


----------------------------------------------------------
Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

[seattlegal]

Muhammed seemed to have a huge sexual appetite, and his wife 'Aisha could actually smell him from a distance:
From Sahih Bukhari (Hadith):

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 270:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:

on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha about the saying of Ibn 'Umar(i.e. he did not like to be a Muhrim while the smell of scent was still coming from his body). 'Aisha said, "I scented Allah's Apostle and he went round (had sexual intercourse with) all his wives, and in the morning he was Muhrim (after taking a bath)."



Volume 7, Book 62, Number 6:
Narrated Anas:

The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.

Originally Posted by Vistor233

What would they say that would reveal a religious inspiration for their actions?

It seems Muhammed did say he had a religious inspiration for his pedophilia!
Muhammed appearently dreamed of having 'Aisha as a wife when she was very, very young, and used this dream as a means to convince Abu Bakr and 'Aisha that such a thing was lawful and moral!
She appearently became his "favorite wife." (Yuck!)

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:
Narrated 'Aisha:

That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' "

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:
Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

[rachel]

Not at all. But the fact that some people are unwilling to recognize the importance of changing historical context does suggest a bias.

I'm not the one who put the Ottoman empire forward as an example of Muslim tolerance. (By the way, did you know that the Ottoman empire has been defunct for quite some time?)

Do you have any links for me?

Read your own posts!

None of which you are able to link to Islam!

None that I have been able to link to Islam to your satisfaction. But then, nothing ever could, since you are the Muslim Apologist Extraordinaire, and have reached Master Adept level at the skill of requesting links, facts and examples and they ignoring them.

I will restate my request to you yet a third time: show me the connection between the crime and the religion. Or just admit that the views you have expressed are groundless or irrational.
Yesterday 6:48 PM

My views are not groundless or irrational, and I have shown you the connection many times, as has David and other posters in this forum. What is irrational is your need to dismiss any connection between Islam and the daily atrocities committed for Islam's sake and in the name of Islam. Only when people like you look past their defensiveness and push for Reformation will Islam be able to drag the hems of it's robes out of the fourth century and fully join the modern world.

Seattle, it's a good thing I'm having a bout of insomnia already, because I wouldn't want to go to sleep with those quotes ringing in my mind.

[Vistor233]

Originally Posted by rachel

I have shown you the connection many times

I see. And when you showed that connection, how did you rule out sociological factors like relative deprivation, regional conflict, self-defense, and individual psychosis for the perpetrator?

The kind of arguments you have made are equivalent to me saying that all crimes committed in Orlando by Roman Catholics prove the militant nature of Catholicism. Sheer nonsense bordering on lunacy.

What is irrational is your need to dismiss any connection between Islam and the daily atrocities committed for Islam's sake and in the name of Islam.

You can't help yourself can you? If the culture is so violent, how do you explain that countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia have the lowest murder rates in the world?

Btw, I have never dismissed that there is a connection. I have merely pointed out that it has not been demonstrated consistently. You haven't demonstrated it at all. You merely make sweeping statements and when I ask for facts you either bow out or repeat the same nonsense.

As for "atrocities committed for Islam's sake," where did a perpetrator claim religious inspiration for a violent act? Where?