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Old 10-29-2003, 4:54 PM
johnhale johnhale is offline
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Default Exodus 33 Why God did not allow Moses to see his face

The visual appearance of God.

The preponderance of biblcal evidence suggests that God doesn't have an appearance. Summed up in:

Colossians 1:15 Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1. God is Spirit (John 4:24)
2. God is invisible (Colossians 1:15)
3. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
4. This refers to his humanity or 1 John 3:2 validates the Book of Mormon in that we will become gods (and it doesn't... we will be like him as a resurrected man).

That having been said:

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

1. The Angel of the Lord (or more accurately "the sent one of YHVH") on several occasions is revealed to be God:

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD*, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

* see Hebrews 6:13 (which answers any questions raised by John 14:28 in that preincarnate, Jesus was equal with the Father... see also Philippians 2:6, John 5:18ff).

Also:

Judges 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

Notice his description:

Judges 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible:* but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: **

* or awesome

** see Genesis 32:29

Judges 13:8 Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born. 9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. 11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am. 12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him? 13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware. 14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe. 15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?*

* see Genesis 32:29 and verse 6 above


Judges 13:19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Notice his wife's response:

Judges 13:23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

Same conclusion Jacob came to in:

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Observe also:

Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Yet, the Bible clearly says:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Which Jesus later clarified:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Hence it was Jesus man was dealing with all along.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (in his ministry and in John 5:37 / Matthew 11:27).

Why was Moses not permitted to see the face of Jesus (Exodus 33:20) can be explained thus:

Since some (Jacob and Manoah & wife) saw him face to face, there was an unrecorded death and resurrection in the Jacob account and hinted at in the Manoah & wife account (Judges 13:20b).

The falling face down, which Daniel goes into detail about:

Daniel 10:15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. 16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. 18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, **

** Paul seemed to indicate it was hard to distinguish whether one was dead or alive when dead (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).

Moses, Aaron, and the 70 elders apparently did not see God's face (even though he in a manner of speaking said he speaks to Moses as one speaks face to face {compare Exodus 33:11 with Deuteronomy 5:4 in that flame has no face}). Remember, Moses would be raised from the dead too many times * if he'd been killed and raised then.

* Moses died in Deuteronomy 34 and makes an apearance in Matthew 17 and Revelation 11. There are exceptions to Hebrews 9:27, but you will notice to a man / woman they are only one per person. And if Moses died more than twice...
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  #2  
Old 10-30-2003, 2:54 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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This is all BS. There was no EXODUS. They dug up the Sinai from one end to the other and they have found no archiological evidence of Thousands of Jews having lived there for all those years. No burrial grounds, no Temples, No Kosher Restaurants, No Jewelry Stores, nothing.

I don't care what you say. You can't have all them Jews live thre for all those years without somebody opening up a Jewelry Store. No Jewelry Store means, they were not there, period.

The towns mentioned in the story existed and were inserted in the story to try to give the story some credibity. No eveidence to support the Exodus Fairy Tale.
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Old 10-30-2003, 4:15 PM
NetGear NetGear is offline
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Ungaro, the steadfast fool, speaks.
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Old 10-30-2003, 4:49 PM
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Bill,
I guess you didn't hear that they found Joseph's tomb in Egypt, and guess what? The body was missing. When Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt, he made sure to take Joseph's body with him.

How can you explain that?

Your hate filled speech is getting old, old man.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2003, 5:45 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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Z,

The people who found the tomb of Joseph empty are the same people who found Noahs Ark. Did you read about that?

Hate you say? Disagreement packaged with a great sense of HUMOR.
No Jewelry Store, No Exodus.
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Old 10-30-2003, 7:51 PM
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Bill, you got anything to back that claim up? I have heard of about 25 or more people in the past century who have claimed to have seen the Ark.

And I am sorry, but the show I saw on both Discovery Channel and PBS never meantioned that these where the people who claimed to have found Noah's ark.

Give me a link, or at least somewhere that I can find it, just don't give me a vague answer.
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Old 10-30-2003, 7:54 PM
NetGear NetGear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
Give me a link, or at least somewhere that I can find it, just don't give me a vague answer.
Ungaro has rarely (if ever) provided links (sources) to back up his absurd comments. He's mentioned the Economist and a few other publications, but his usual approach is to say you're lazy for not looking it up yourself. Ungaro is all hot air.
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2003, 8:29 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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Z,

That's not all. The people who found the empty tomb of Joseph are the same people who have found Noahs Ark and, this is the best one, they have a Black and White Picture of Jesus taking off from Bethany.

The surviving parts of Noahs Ark will be on display in Pat Robertsons living room for his X-mas show. He invited the Rev. Fartwell and all the other Woo-Doo Priests to spend X-mas at his house and will pray together about the possibility of offering Noahs Ark for viewing by the Public for
Fifty Dollars a POP.

3x5 Glossy copies of the picture of Jesus taking off from Bethany will also be offered at a later date. They have a problem because it seems that Jesus had chartered a Russian Helicopter. They have to electronically alter to make the insignia on the helicopter look like it was from the First Armored Cav. Jesus should have known better.

It would not be fun if I directed you to the internet site that has all this stuff. If you look hard, you will find it and some other interesting stuff.

Example: Did you know that Disney is Planning a Team Park in Jerusalem about the trials and tribulations of Jesus? Yeap. They plan to build a Light Rail System to take the Tourist from place to place. The story will be told backwards. The Tour will start in Bethany and it will end in Bethlehem. There will be extra charge for going to Nazareth. Mc Donalds is already negotiating to buy up all the choice locations along the route. Have you ever had a Kosher Hamburger? Tastes great, less filling.

Seriously, have you ever been in Israel? I have. All the Biblical sights are neatly aranged in easy walking distance. You could do most of the Bible in a half a day. I guess Urban Planning got it's start during the time of Jesus.
Probably some Hungarian Engineer did it.
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Old 10-30-2003, 8:42 PM
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Speeeeeewww....
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  #10  
Old 10-31-2003, 7:16 AM
B. Ungaro
 
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The stuff classified as "SPEEEEEEEEW" by an esteemed member can also be found in the Bible in a less humorous format. The reference to Disney was based on a REVELATION. I have been getting a lot of those lately.
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  #11  
Old 10-31-2003, 11:05 AM
johnhale johnhale is offline
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Default Where the Sinai really is

The skeptic here is in fact correct. Mount Sinai was dug up with no evidence there ever was an Exodus. But this is not due to the fact that there was no Exodus from Egypt but rather there was an historical misplacement of Mount Horeb by the mother of Emperor Constantine who for no other reason than she fancied the place chose Mount Sinai as the mountain of God in the wilderness, and the Catholic Monasteries followed...

Jabal Al Lwaz in Saudi Arabia is a very remote place filled to bursting with archaeological evidence that a vast amount of people camped there and were suddenly gone.

The non-volcanic mountain top has been somehow seared.
The rock that split and water gushed forth is there.
The altar to the calfgod is there.
There is even an inscription on a cave wall "al musseh" (arabic for Moses).

http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

The most indicative of this site is the Bible itself

Galatians 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Also there have been discoveries that the crossing of the Red Sea was across the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba.

Regards,
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Old 10-31-2003, 1:10 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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Just another twist and turn in an attempt to keep alive the story while destroying the divinity of the Bible. How can the Bible be so wrong and conflicting if it's the word of God?

Z,

I hate that you bite so readily. There is no Noahs Ark. However, if they ever find one, it will be displayed in Pat Robertsons living Room.

You have a chance to become rich. There is a Million Dollar Reward on the Internet for finding Noahs Ark or a Major Part of It. Hurry, Hurry.
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Old 10-31-2003, 1:41 PM
johnhale johnhale is offline
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I note well, sir, your complete lack of refutation of anything I have posted, you are simply spouting unfounded skepticism of which those of your ilk are undoubtedly proud.
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Old 10-31-2003, 1:43 PM
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Noah's ark is also the victim of historical misplacement... the actual mountains of ararat are further to the east than the modern day range that bears the name.
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Old 10-31-2003, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ungaro
More Speeeeeeewwww.
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Old 10-31-2003, 5:43 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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John,

I do not wish to engage you in debate about an ever changing theory. I grew up hearing and reading the story of how Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem for a CENSUS. As it turns out, there was no Census that would correspond to the time of the birth of the alleged Jesus. Ooops, now we are told that they went to Bethelem to pay their Taxes.

Where did I read that Moses and the Jews wondered around in the Sinai for all those years? Could it be the Bible? Your attempt to mealy-mouth around this fact is shallow. What about those towns that were included in the story, for effect, that happen to be right where they supposed to be. Near the Siani. Hello.

Again, I would not object to any of this if you folks would just do your Woo-Doo stuff in privacy. Unfortunately, you wish to push this BS on me and others. Even though, your are constantly having to explain the errors and contradictions in your fairy tales. Next thing, we will be told that Mary was only a semi virgin. Pleeeeease.
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Old 10-31-2003, 6:05 PM
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Bill,
Technically, this board is private, you have to register to post your views. I cannot recall anyone putting a gun to your head and type in www.goldtalk.com, sign in your name and password, and the repond to a post. Or did one of us do that? LOL.

So you saying that we are forcing something upon you is retarded.
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Old 10-31-2003, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ungaro
I do not wish to engage you in debate about an ever changing theory.
Translation: "John, I'm completely ill-equipped to engage you in any type of debate. Especially, this type of debate..."
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Old 10-31-2003, 6:09 PM
B. Ungaro
 
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Z,

I this board would be only expression of religious dogmas. Your point would be valid.
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Old 10-31-2003, 6:31 PM
johnhale johnhale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Ungaro
John,

I do not wish to engage you in debate about an ever changing theory. I grew up hearing and reading the story of how Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem for a CENSUS. As it turns out, there was no Census that would correspond to the time of the birth of the alleged Jesus. Ooops, now we are told that they went to Bethelem to pay their Taxes.
I never said you couldn't disbelieve, B. You can disbelieve anything you want including the truth which we espouse here. Just don't challenge it and expect to get away with it here least of all.

By the way, taxes and census were one and the same in those days.

Quote:
Where did I read that Moses and the Jews wondered around in the Sinai for all those years? Could it be the Bible? Your attempt to mealy-mouth around this fact is shallow.
Did you check out the sites I backed up my FACTS with? Would you care to listen to the real audio interview with former law officer Bob Kornuck who went there at great personal risk? The man showed how he set aside the traditional sites which you scoff at and I agree have no historic / archaeological evidence... and used the BIBLE and he found archaeological AND historic evidence.

I guess aside from those facts and evidences and proofs, I suppose I am being mealy mouthed...

Quote:
What about those towns that were included in the story, for effect, that happen to be right where they supposed to be. Near the Siani. Hello.
Again, listen to the detailed description from the man who retraced the wilderness wandering landmark for landmark and we'll put that up against your unfounded claim here.

Quote:
Again, I would not object to any of this if you folks would just do your Woo-Doo stuff in privacy. Unfortunately, you wish to push this BS on me and others. Even though, your are constantly having to explain the errors and contradictions in your fairy tales. Next thing, we will be told that Mary was only a semi virgin. Pleeeeease.
Z answered this correctly.

I would also point out that cloning PROVES virgin birth is possible.

And the Hebrew scholars 300 years before the birth of Messiah translated a passage in Isaiah as "parthenos" concluding that the virgin birth is indeed a sign and a fact of the Messiah's birth.

Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
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