Obama's Church

[Osiris]

Yes.
I think they should be above board.
Now if someone runs as an atheist, agnostic, jew, catholic, protestant, morman, mohamadist, or some cult. Anything we have a right to know before we hand over the reigns of the most powerful country left on earth.
It may not be a major issue, but it still matters. Just like a guy who has left his wife while she was recovering from cancer.

Exactly. It matters to me, because I can't think of a more profound disclosure of a person's values than the religion they choose or whom they select as a spiritual adviser.

Well then, if it really matters, perhaps we should know everyones religious belief before conversing, working with or for, and/or whatever else may affect our personal lives. Presidents make decisions for America, and down the line making decisions for others are the Senator's and Congress folk. So do police and doctors and nurses, and teachers and lawyers, and your co-workers maybe and your supervisors and/or your boss. The mayor of your city, those in local leadership roles, committeemen/women, firemen/women, and the list goes on.

If you deem it important to know what religion a president carries, despite there being no reason what so ever as part of their campaign, and that the US constitution makes it very clear, that there is no "litmus test", then you do not have a right to know.

[Addison]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Well then, if it really matters, perhaps we should know everyones religious belief before conversing, working with or for, and/or whatever else may affect our personal lives. Presidents make decisions for America, and down the line making decisions for others are the Senator's and Congress folk. So do police and doctors and nurses, and teachers and lawyers, and your co-workers maybe and your supervisors and/or your boss. The mayor of your city, those in local leadership roles, committeemen/women, firemen/women, and the list goes on.

If I'm asked to vote for or choose someone to fill a position of leadership, I prefer to analyze his or her character and values. If you don't, I'm ok with that.

Originally Posted by Osiris

If you deem it important to know what religion a president carries, despite there being no reason what so ever as part of their campaign, and that the US constitution makes it very clear, that there is no "litmus test", then you do not have a right to know.

Assumes there is no reason whatsoever.

You asked:

Originally Posted by Osiris

Since there isn't any religious "litmus test", does it really matter in America what a person's religion is?

That's just making a huge leap, to say IF "no litmus test" THEN "doesn't matter."

I said religion matters to me, because it's a good indicator of a candidate's values. Not because I have a litmus test that would require he be of a certain religion or not. Heck, at the end of the day, I might conclude that a Hindu has values that are a better fit for the job or to my liking than a Methodist minister.

And it especially matters when the candidates specific church of choice is politically charged. What sort of fool would think it didn't matter if a candidate chose to be a member of that Fred Phelps church?

And it's not like they aren't volunteering their affiliations. Do you really think it's unconstitutional for me as a voter to consider the implications in my evaluation of him? Of course not. So the whole "no litmus test" argument is irrelevant.

[rachel]

And it especially matters when the candidates specific church of choice is politically charged. What sort of fool would think it didn't matter if a candidate chose to be a member of that Fred Phelps church?

Exactly!

My interest in Obama's religion has nothing to do with whether he's Christian or Buddhist, it has to do with the church he attends and the pastor who heads it, with whom he has a close relationship. As I have said, if the pastor of a White, Republican's church was preaching about White values and about a commitment to Mother Europe, and giving lifetime achievement awards to a Klu Klux Klan poohbah, nothing Os says would convince me that he wouldn't think it was a matter of concern.

Libbies have certainly demonstrated great concern over the religion of conservative Republicans! Golly, when President Bush was running, that's all you heard about was his Right Wing Evangelical Christianity, and it was a constant source of commentary throughout his Presidency.

They also certainly took Huckabee's religious views into consideration and made them into fodder for criticism.

Oh, but because Obama's a demmie, and Black, we aren't allowed to concern ourselves over minor little things like his pastor, close personal friend and mentor traveling to Libya to visit Qaddafi, along with Farrakhan. Or his friendship with an unrepentant domestic terrorist for that matter.

I suppose it isn't o.k. for me to be concerned about this either, or want more information/confirmation about it?

[Osiris]

If I'm asked to vote for or choose someone to fill a position of leadership, I prefer to analyze his or her character and values. If you don't, I'm ok with that.

So am I actually. But I am interested in a discussion on the matter. Curiosity about a candidate and his/her politics, policy advocations, etc., I get, but the matter of ones religious belief I do not. If it were that they carried a belief that could be dangerous as in cults, and that they were advocating it, that would be different.

said religion matters to me, because it's a good indicator of a candidate's values.

Maybe in the 'old days', but what we have seen in just our adult lifetime shows us that ones religious belief is definitively not an indicator of "values". We have seen priests engaged in pedophilia. We have seen Ministers engaged with homosexuality and with prostitution. And now with the 'Spitzer' case, we are seeing a rising man who had many good accomplishments, turn out to be not so different from those he prosecuted for doing the exact same thing he did. We listened to a man named Gingrich who strongly and loudly and often espoused "family values", and who consistently criticised Clinton for his Lewinsky affair, who while doing that, was busy having an affair of his own. We have all those, both democrats and republicans, who espoused law, virtue, and "values", taking bribes, having affairs, being drunks, etc., people of faith so to speak, and yet, they fell. Using religious belief as a "values" accessment is dangerous.

Better to have an open and free press to look into, to question, to investigate, and to report, helps to make a more reasoned and accepted "values" judgment based upon the person's actual track record. We do have the "free press", although one might question their track record on "real investigative jopurnalism".

And it especially matters when the candidates specific church of choice is politically charged. What sort of fool would think it didn't matter if a candidate chose to be a member of that Fred Phelps church?

In the matter of "Black Churches" in particular, look around. They have traditionally been the "community center" for the Blacks long denied equality of society and of law before the Civil Rights issues came to the top. It was, and still remains, that the Black Churches are the central gathering of community, religious, and social events of the Black Community, where they are not turned away because of their color. And it is also a strong point that Black Churches focused on the Black community, culture, and history. Whites have always had their ethnic centers like the "Son's of Norway", "Scottish Rite Temples", and other such gathering places for politics, community, etc., separate from the religious institutions because there was no need to use religious institutions as political gathering places.

As for Phelps, he is a man of a different stripe altogether. Even his own base group refuses to recognize him and his antics.

And it's not like they aren't volunteering their affiliations. Do you really think it's unconstitutional for me as a voter to consider the implications in my evaluation of him? Of course not. So the whole "no litmus test" argument is irrelevant.

It is okay for you and others to look into, and to add into an evaluation using such criteria. But I am hearing also, and reading, that there are many using Obama's religious affiliation as a "litmus test" for qualification. I get those e-mails from time to time that do just that, and worse actually. There are people doing it because this is what they really believe. There are internet sites devoted to the question of Obama's acceptability because of his "religious affiliation". To them, they say that his religion is not an accepted Christian religious belief.

My interest in Obama's religion has nothing to do with whether he's Christian or Buddhist, it has to do with the church he attends and the pastor who heads it, with whom he has a close relationship. As I have said, if the pastor of a White, Republican's church was preaching about White values and about a commitment to Mother Europe, and giving lifetime achievement awards to a Klu Klux Klan poohbah, nothing Os says would convince me that he wouldn't think it was a matter of concern.

Fine, you disagree with the Minister of Obama's church. You disagree with what that Minister says. But now has Obama espoused anything of what the Minister says for others to follow? You point to the church and to the Minister, but what about Obama?

They also certainly took Huckabee's religious views into consideration and made them into fodder for criticism.

And what were the republican/conservatives saying about Mitt Romney's Mormanism?

I suppose it isn't o.k. for me to be concerned about this either, or want more information/confirmation about it?

This link steps beyond the matter of religious affiliation and is what one would consider more relevant material.

[rachel]

Fine, you disagree with the Minister of Obama's church. You disagree with what that Minister says. But now has Obama espoused anything of what the Minister says for others to follow? You point to the church and to the Minister, but what about Obama?

If a conservative Republican candidate was attending a church headed by a pastor who was preaching about White values and about a commitment to Mother Europe, and giving lifetime achievement awards to a Klu Klux Klan poohbah, you wouldn't be defending him, you would be asking, just as I am, why he stayed at that church, since there are churches aplenty.

Another aspect of this...suppose Mr. Obama honestly disapproves of his pastor, friend, and religious mentor lauding the achievements of an openly racist, anti-Semitic bigot, but continues attending his church, listening to the sermons, and going to his pastor, friend and religious mentor for guidance and prayer, what does that say about his character, that he is willing to "agree to disagree" on such a basic character issue?

And what were the republican/conservatives saying about Mitt Romney's Mormanism?

Um...most of them that I heard from weren't concerned about it. There were a few idjits who said some stupid things out of either malice or ignorance, but may I remind you that Mr. Romney did quite well, though McCain won in the end.

In any case, what was said about Mr. Romney by anyone has no relevance to libbies being concerned about Mr. Huckabee...you're just engaging in finger pointing, "but he did it too, mama!"...to evade the point I made, which you know to be accurate, regarding the consideration of Mr. Huckabee's religious beliefs (and those of President Bush).

This link steps beyond the matter of religious affiliation and is what one would consider more relevant material.

Yes, it is what one would consider relevant, thank you for saying so. You keep referring to the concerns expressed about the relationship Mr. Obama has with a man openly admiring of an anti-Semite and a bigot as a "matter of religious affiliation", which it is not. I have pointed out that I am not concerned about his "religious affiliation". In fact, I don't even know what specific "sect" of Christianity Trinity is affiliated with. I am concerned about his relationship with is pastor, friend and spiritual mentor on the basis of what his respect for the man might say about how Mr. Obama feels about anti-White racism and anti-Semitism, not to mention what exactly a "commitment to remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization", ie Africa, means to him.

[Addison]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Maybe in the 'old days', but what we have seen in just our adult lifetime shows us that ones religious belief is definitively not an indicator of "values". We have seen priests engaged in pedophilia. [...]

Better to have an open and free press to look into, to question, to investigate, and to report, helps to make a more reasoned and accepted "values" judgment based upon the person's actual track record. We do have the "free press", although one might question their track record on "real investigative jopurnalism".

That assumes I'd only want to know what religion he was, or church attended. Why say "better to have..." when they aren't mutually exclusive?

I say take it all and get the most complete picture you can.

You want to throw out the religious info because you say it shouldn't matter.

In the matter of "Black Churches" in particular, look around. They have traditionally been the "community center" for the Blacks[...]

The fact that it's a "Black Church" isn't what we're concerned about.

As for Phelps, he is a man of a different stripe altogether. Even his own base group refuses to recognize him and his antics.

And so, I'd bet, is Obama's guy.

[Addison]

Originally Posted by rachel

If a conservative Republican candidate was attending a church headed by a pastor who was preaching about White values and about a commitment to Mother Europe, and giving lifetime achievement awards to a Klu Klux Klan poohbah, you wouldn't be defending him, you would be asking, just as I am, why he stayed at that church, since there are churches aplenty.

Another aspect of this...suppose Mr. Obama honestly disapproves of his pastor, friend, and religious mentor lauding the achievements of an openly racist, anti-Semitic bigot, but continues attending his church, listening to the sermons, and going to his pastor, friend and religious mentor for guidance and prayer, what does that say about his character, that he is willing to "agree to disagree" on such a basic character issue?

Exactly!

[speaktothesky]

I thought I just had a fear of a black planet.

Running for Prez is too important to be left to an unknown quality.

[Osiris]

If a conservative Republican candidate was attending a church headed by a pastor who was preaching about White values and about a commitment to Mother Europe, and giving lifetime achievement awards to a Klu Klux Klan poohbah, you wouldn't be defending him, you would be asking, just as I am, why he stayed at that church, since there are churches aplenty.

IF-if-if-ad infinitum! It is the church that Obama has chosen, either accept that or get a life. It is not for anyone to tell him to find another if he is happy with his own choice. You have never been to it so what do you actually know about it from one day to the next?

Another aspect of this...suppose Mr. Obama honestly disapproves of his pastor, friend, and religious mentor lauding the achievements of an openly racist, anti-Semitic bigot, but continues attending his church, listening to the sermons, and going to his pastor, friend and religious mentor for guidance and prayer, what does that say about his character, that he is willing to "agree to disagree" on such a basic character issue?

When Christ was on the cross, and after all the detrimental, disparaging remarks made about him by the Jewish hierarchy of his time, and that they called for his crucifiction, did he renounce his Jewishness? Just who the hell are you to tell another that they should renounce their church and move to another that YOU approve of? Who put you up on that judgemental podium?

Um...most of them that I heard from weren't concerned about it. There were a few idjits who said some stupid things out of either malice or ignorance, but may I remind you that Mr. Romney did quite well, though McCain won in the end.

A few??? Oh how sheltered a life you must live to not see it. Why do you think that the man went on TV to tell his side of his religious belief?

In any case, what was said about Mr. Romney by anyone has no relevance to libbies being concerned about Mr. Huckabee...you're just engaging in finger pointing, "but he did it too, mama!"...to evade the point I made, which you know to be accurate, regarding the consideration of Mr. Huckabee's religious beliefs (and those of President Bush).

Me? You don't find much from me about Huckabee with exception to statements he personally made. They did it to Romney, the conservs, and the libs without thinking did it to Huck, and you people are doing it to Obama. Your damn right I am finger pointing. Because it fits!

Yes, it is what one would consider relevant, thank you for saying so. You keep referring to the concerns expressed about the relationship Mr. Obama has with a man openly admiring of an anti-Semite and a bigot as a "matter of religious affiliation", which it is not.

Show the man's actual statements on that matter of anti-semitism and racism. I can't be sure which man you're referencing.

I have pointed out that I am not concerned about his "religious affiliation". In fact, I don't even know what specific "sect" of Christianity Trinity is affiliated with. I am concerned about his relationship with is pastor, friend and spiritual mentor on the basis of what his respect for the man might say about how Mr. Obama feels about anti-White racism and anti-Semitism, not to mention what exactly a "commitment to remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization", ie Africa, means to him.

In regard to that very first sentence, "...you would be asking, just as I am, why he stayed at that church, since there are churches aplenty." Not concerned? But you would stand there and suggest he should maybe consider a different church? Right!

I am not concerned unless he makes the same claims and statements that you want to reference to another, and he has not ever.

[Osiris]

I say take it all and get the most complete picture you can.

You want to throw out the religious info because you say it shouldn't matter.

"wanting info is different from saying that maybe because of what "another" say's, that they should change churches. Want info? Fine, I can accept and live with that.

The fact that it's a "Black Church" isn't what we're concerned about.

Not just that it is a "Black Church", but that of the history behind how they operate different from traditional "White Churches". BTW, it is not an "entirely" Black Church, many Whites also attend the services in that church. If there were any racism being preached as Rachel alludes to, then why are they there and not being hassled or thrown out?

And so, I'd bet, is Obama's guy.

Don't know, haven't heard other mainline religious groups say much about it yet. Of course, I haven't really gone looking for that info either. To me, my religious faith is really personal. Ask me about it, and we talk, make off color remarks about it, you get shut out stone cold, no more talk. Of which, I will say that it is Catholicism, and despite the situation with pedophile priests, and the hirearchy secretly transferring them around, I will not denounce the faith, itself. And I will not change Churches either no matter what the 'Rachel' says.

And Obama has disagreed with his Ministers statements that he does not agree with. Or is it that you are neglecting to follow that part of this?

[Addison]

No, Osi. I'm aware of that. Covered it in the "agree to disagree thing.

I don't know. We seem to be having a huge failue to communicate. e.g. the difference between
a) tellin someone to leave their faith, or even cange churches, and
b) saying that you can star or go wherever you please, but where you do choose to be a member of specific congregation X AND have Y pastor as your "personal spiritual adviser", then the type congregation and man that is will be considered in my evaluation of your values.

Seems so simple to me, but I could be wrong, and I've got a headache that's got me nearly seeing double here.

I dunno.

ftr, i saw a show that had a bunch of video of that pastor - i'm sorry, but imnsho, the man is a bigoted pig. Obama can choose him as his spiritual advisor all he wants, and i wouldnt stop him, but i'm not going to pretend it doesn't mean anything.

[rachel]

IF-if-if-ad infinitum! It is the church that Obama has chosen, either accept that or get a life. It is not for anyone to tell him to find another if he is happy with his own choice. You have never been to it so what do you actually know about it from one day to the next?

Don't get snippy with me just because you know I'm right about how your reaction would be quite different if the colors were turned, as it were. You just don't want to admit it because that would require you to admit that this is a matter for some concern.

As for what I know about it, I have combed the church's own website, and red quite a few excerpts from Pastor Wright's sermons, and I know that his church gave a life time achievement award to a famous bigot and anti-Semite and that he traveled with that same, famous bigot and anti-Semite to confer with the terrorist sponsoring Qaddafi. I know that Rev. Wright is the close friend and spiritual mentor of a man who wants me to trust the safety, prosperity and liberty of me, mine and my fellow citizens to his good judgment, and yet, who also has a "friendly relationship" with an unrepentant domestic terrorist who fully admits that he bombed the Pentagon and opined that he was sorry he hadn't done more not so long ago.

I take these things into consideration, and then add to that the possibility of some kind of shenanigans (note, I say possibility) around Rezco's involvement in the purchase of Mr. Obama's home and garden parcel, and the fact that in the office of some of his campaign volunteers, a Cuban flag with Che Guevara's image on it hung, and his only comment was that it was "inappropriate". I wonder if a Republican candidate for President were in this situation, say, with campaign volunteers hanging a swastika flag or an image of Robert E. Lee over the Stars and Bars, and his only comment was that it was "inappropriate", if that would be enough? HA!

It is not for anyone to tell him to find another if he is happy with his own choice....Just who the hell are you to tell another that they should renounce their church and move to another that YOU approve of? Who put you up on that judgemental podium?

Really? How about if it came out tomorrow that John McCain's church had ties to that of that hate monger I won't honor with the title of Reverend, Phelps? Would you tell me it wasn't any of my concern then, as long as it was his choice and he was happy with it?

Get real, Os!

Why do you think that the man went on TV to tell his side of his religious belief?

Because a few people have big voices, especially when what they say is controversial enough to attract media attention. No comment on my reminder that Mr. Romney did quite well?

Your damn right I am finger pointing. Because it fits!

Watch that potty mouth, Os (and punctuation...the contraction for "you are" is "you're")

And it doesn't fit at all. You are intent on making this an attack on his religion so you can get on your high horse and wag your finger, but as I have already pointed out, I am not concerned about his Christianity, nor whatever sect it is that he affiliates himself with. I am concerned about his judgment when it comes to the people he chooses to respect, admire, call friends and associate with.

In regard to that very first sentence, "...you would be asking, just as I am, why he stayed at that church, since there are churches aplenty." Not concerned? But you would stand there and suggest he should maybe consider a different church? Right!

One's religious affiliation is not dependent upon a single church, unless it is a brand new sect and only has one church. Let's say for the sake of argument that Trinity United is a Episcopal church (it isn't, I know that much, but just for the sake of argument). There are plenty of Episcopal churches to choose from, one needn't stay at one where the pastor gives lifetime achievement awards to, and goes on trips to visit terrorist dictators with someone like David Duke, Louis Farrakhan or some other racist bigot.

So yeah, Os. I do suggest he should consider a different church. I am not suggesting he change his faith or affiliation, I am suggesting that I would not attend a church led by a pastor like that, nor would I take him as my spiritual mentor and friend and then expect it not to reflect on my judgment.

[Osiris]

Don't get snippy with me just because you know I'm right about how your reaction would be quite different if the colors were turned, as it were. You just don't want to admit it because that would require you to admit that this is a matter for some concern.

Snippy? You bet! We have an actual situation, and as usual, you have to go off running to make up a different situation out of thin air. Get with the program lady. We already have a "situation", so deal with the particulars of that.

As for what I know about it, I have combed the church's own website, and red quite a few excerpts from Pastor Wright's sermons, and I know that his church gave a life time achievement award to a famous bigot and anti-Semite and that he traveled with that same, famous bigot and anti-Semite to confer with the terrorist sponsoring Qaddafi. I know that Rev. Wright is the close friend and spiritual mentor of a man who wants me to trust the safety, prosperity and liberty of me, mine and my fellow citizens to his good judgment, and yet, who also has a "friendly relationship" with an unrepentant domestic terrorist who fully admits that he bombed the Pentagon and opined that he was sorry he hadn't done more not so long ago.

I take these things into consideration, and then add to that the possibility of some kind of shenanigans (note, I say possibility) around Rezco's involvement in the purchase of Mr. Obama's home and garden parcel, and the fact that in the office of some of his campaign volunteers, a Cuban flag with Che Guevara's image on it hung, and his only comment was that it was "inappropriate". I wonder if a Republican candidate for President were in this situation, say, with campaign volunteers hanging a swastika flag or an image of Robert E. Lee over the Stars and Bars, and his only comment was that it was "inappropriate", if that would be enough? HA!

Well you put it all in this one, everything including the kitchen sink. You couldn't stay with just the church item, you had to bring everything else in too. Now, what about the rest of the parishioners? What are they saying about the church? What are they doing about what the Minister says? Do you know the day to day material and actions of the church?

Really? How about if it came out tomorrow that John McCain's church had ties to that of that hate monger I won't honor with the title of Reverend, Phelps? Would you tell me it wasn't any of my concern then, as long as it was his choice and he was happy with it?

"Hagee". You're late and it doesn't matter unless the man completely agrees with everything, and neither Obama nor McCain do.

Because a few people have big voices, especially when what they say is controversial enough to attract media attention. No comment on my reminder that Mr. Romney did quite well?

Few again? speaking of getting real, why don't you?

Watch that potty mouth, Os (and punctuation...the contraction for "you are" is "you're")

Tough it lady, and you're not the grammar queen of the board!

And it doesn't fit at all. You are intent on making this an attack on his religion so you can get on your high horse and wag your finger, but as I have already pointed out, I am not concerned about his Christianity, nor whatever sect it is that he affiliates himself with. I am concerned about his judgment when it comes to the people he chooses to respect, admire, call friends and associate with.

That's why your so much into attacking the Minister and the church, but no, you're not intent on "attacking" on his religion...right!

One's religious affiliation is not dependent upon a single church, unless it is a brand new sect and only has one church. Let's say for the sake of argument that Trinity United is a Episcopal church (it isn't, I know that much, but just for the sake of argument). There are plenty of Episcopal churches to choose from, one needn't stay at one where the pastor gives lifetime achievement awards to, and goes on trips to visit terrorist dictators with someone like David Duke, Louis Farrakhan or some other racist bigot.

So yeah, Os. I do suggest he should consider a different church. I am not suggesting he change his faith or affiliation, I am suggesting that I would not attend a church led by a pastor like that, nor would I take him as my spiritual mentor and friend and then expect it not to reflect on my judgment.

And I will say this again, it is none of your business what church a person wants to attend and/or be a member of. You are free to decide for your own self, but you do not have a right to tell another to move to another. Be critical of the church all you want, denigrate the head man all you want, but unless you can show a direct link between the Ministers words and Obama's actions following those words, you running on empty.

[speaktothesky]

Guilt by association, it works all the time.

[rachel]

Obama's spiritual mentor, close friend and pastor for 20 years:

Wright's Christmas Sermon

God Damn America, preaches Jeremiah Wright

[Addison]

Originally Posted by speaktothesky

Guilt by association, it works all the time.

This isn't fallacious guilt by association, speak. The fallacy of guilt by association is committed when you say something like the love of punctuality is indicative of bigotry because the Nazis loved it too. Or that someone who loves vodka is communist because the commies loved it too.

[Addison]

Originally Posted by rachel

Obama's spiritual mentor, close friend and pastor for 20 years:

Wright's Christmas Sermon

God Damn America, preaches Jeremiah Wright

Sickening.

[speaktothesky]

No, I think we should give him a metal.. maybe lead

[David]

Thanks for posting this Rachel. America needs to know Obama's mentor up close and personal.

[David]

ABC News
SOURCE

Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11
Obama's Pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Has a History of What Even Obama's Campaign Aides Say Is 'Inflammatory Rhetoric'