Higher Education Bubble?

[BoomerSue]

On Hannitys radio show the other day he interviewed a young women down at the Wall street protest. She was very articulate, spoke with emotion at the speed of lightening and there was nothing but liberal rhetoric coming out of her mouth. She believed the government should pay for everything. She was so clueless willing to trade her freedom/liberty for security. She was 37, had many different past jobs and had an 8 year old daughter. She bragged about her degrees and her high point grade average which impresses Shaun.
Her beef?....She had an $80,000 student loan hanging over her head. Am I missing something here? Maybe is it common sense. The highpaid liberal professors worked their Marxist magic for a mere $80,000 and she is NOT protesting at the college she is at wallstreet. These kids will never be abel to pay off these loans. The student loan bubble will burst and there will never be a mention of the rich retired liberal professors sitting on some beach still collecting their bloated pensions.

[FastEddy]

Originally Posted by Bemused

On the flip side, do you want to try your luck in this economy with just a high school diploma?... This is an example of contemporary idiocy, of course. Does your auto mechanic have a PhD? Or need one? ... The problem is that our colleges and universities are charging a $100,000 to pump out the next generation of dog walkers. ... [and]

... the problem is that [any and almost all] universities are using predatory lending practiced to sell federally backed student loans to people desperate to train as nurses and tech workers so that they WILL be qualified for jobs. ... One of many Sources Out There ... It is the mortgage industry all over again. ...

[FastEddy]

" ... The Backdoor Attempt to Rewrite No Child Left Behind" - Mike Brownfield at Heritage.org October 19, 2011 (from newsletter link)

"... Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) explained his frustrations with the process:

'The [democrat sponsored] bill is 868 pages and we got it yesterday, and I talked to committee members today and said this isn’t the way government should work. I thought we’d have hearings. We’ve had zero hearings on No Child Left Behind. I would think we’d have several significant hearings…Bring in the teachers, bring in the superintendents, bring in the principals and find out more about it. We’ve had none of that, and I think it’s rotten.'

Paul’s solution to the problem? He has promised to introduce 100 amendments, including a complete repeal of NCLB, in order to slow down the committee and force them to take time to consider everything that’s in Harkin’s proposal. ..."

" ... The federal government’s heavy-handed, top-down approach in education hasn’t delivered results, as Heritage’s Lindsey Burke writes:

'This represents the ninth such bet since the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, and none has proved successful. NCLB, the most recent reauthorization of ESEA, has left local school districts crying out for more freedom from federal red tape and to have their educational decision-making authority restored.' ...

... 'Instead of, to quote Reagan, another 860 page “bureaucratic boondoggle,” policymakers should work to reduce the federal footprint on education. A good proposal would allow states to completely opt out of No Child Left Behind. A good proposal would allow states to spend education dollars in a way that meets student needs and allow states to enact school choice options for families. But Washington hasn’t learned its lesson after more than four decades of federal failure in education. Because what we’re seeing now is a big government attempt to reinforce the failed status quo.' ... "

Block grants to the states, option for states to "opt out", hearings on those districts where "No Child ..." works OR does not work ...

Sounds like a more civilized plan ... Maybe Ron Paul's suggestion to scrap the whole thing, first, then try to find solutions that don't involve the fed HHS, Dept. of "Education" at all! ...

(This should have been posted as well at the sticky: "Stimulus Fallout-Waste, Fraud & Abuse")

[FoundingFather]

Originally Posted by Rafael

Yep. Those who get degrees in hard science, technical fields, or (sadly) welfare are ready to work. History, philosophy, English, etc., not so much.

They're ready to discuss the history of work, the merits behind working, and how to spell it....

[GeronL]

Its time to get government out of college financing period.

[Bemused]

Originally Posted by GeronL

Its time to get government out of college financing period.

well... duh!

..

[FastEddy]

Originally Posted by GeronL

Its time to get government out of college financing period.

Bemused: "well... duh!"

ed.gov web site reads like a charity drive / campaign pledge / fed grant clearing house / teachers' union(s) promo:

"35 states, DC, and Puerto Rico submitted applications for the Race to the [day care] Top-Early Learning Challenge, a $500 million state-level competitive grant program to improve early learning and development. ... Speaking to Oregon business leaders, Secretary Duncan explained that the American Jobs Act "would keep teachers in the classroom instead of on unemployment lines" and "put [union] construction workers back to work modernizing and repairing public schools and community colleges. ... Nearly 300,000 [unnecessary] teaching jobs have been lost since 2008 as a result of state and local budget shortfalls. Without federal assistance, up to 280,000 [history re-writer] teacher jobs could be at risk. ... "

The federal Department of Re-Education is the problem, the whole problem and nothing but the problem ... time for the cuts, stop the skim and scam ... Let the purges begin!

Important Info: More the 65% of the employees of the California State "Education" System do not teach ... Almost all never enter a classroom except to put up posters and drop off g'ment/union propaganda ... AND then pimp the feds for more gravy.

[Bemused]

Originally Posted by FastEddy

Bemused: "well... duh!"

ed.gov web site reads like a charity drive / campaign pledge / fed grant clearing house / teachers' union(s) promo:

"35 states, DC, and Puerto Rico submitted applications for the Race to the [day care] Top-Early Learning Challenge, a $500 million state-level competitive grant program to improve early learning and development. ... Speaking to Oregon business leaders, Secretary Duncan explained that the American Jobs Act "would keep teachers in the classroom instead of on unemployment lines" and "put [union] construction workers back to work modernizing and repairing public schools and community colleges. ... Nearly 300,000 [unnecessary] teaching jobs have been lost since 2008 as a result of state and local budget shortfalls. Without federal assistance, up to 280,000 [history re-writer] teacher jobs could be at risk. ... "

The federal Department of Re-Education is the problem, the whole problem and nothing but the problem ... time for the cuts, stop the skim and scam ... Let the purges begin!

Important Info: More the 65% of the employees of the California State "Education" System do not teach ... Almost all never enter a classroom except to put up posters and drop off g'ment/union propaganda ... AND then pimp the feds for more gravy.

The biggest problem IMHO has been the federalization of education ever since the creation of the Dept of [NO] Education. in the late 70's.

It can be argued (and I am one who would argue) that the federal government has a legitimate role in creating and publishing and encouraging standards for the states to implement. What would that take? a bureau with 25 employees and an annual budget of a few million or so?

It is LOCAL government that has the mandate for public education, with the states having some oversight.

It is NOT the role of the federal government to drive all educational policy. Period!

[David]

David Brooks seems to show a college degree is worth more than ever.

SOURCE

[David]

Average student-loan debt tops $25,000 for first time

SOURCE

[Orin]

You don't have to be a math major to understand this statistic: The average student-loan debt of last year's college graduates tops $25,000

That's a car note. Is a car worth an education?

I got mine later in life and leveraged mine. Well worth the investment. I remember the '72 MG midget cost about 2.5k new. Wonder if a student-loan-obtained degree cost as much in '72. Prices do go up.

[David]

So do those who warn of a bubble have a case?

The hard part, of course, is that a bubble is never apparent until it bursts. But the short answer is this: There are worrisome trends. A degree is an asset whose value can change over time. Borrowing to pay for it is risky, and borrowing is way up. The stakes are high. You can usually walk away from a house. Not so a student loan, which can't even be discharged in bankruptcy.

SOURCE

[Rafael]

Hmmmm. Just wondering! My older son quit work and is going to TWU full time in pursuit of a doctorate in physical therapy. We'll be helping them (and our new granddaughter) about $1000/mo. It'll take about 2.5 years. Are we entering into great risk?

[David]

No. I think Physical Therapy is a useful degree leading to a solid employment opportunity. If the major was in Peace Studies or Classics I might have a different take.

[schaabdl]

My daughter is working first toward Occupational Therapy Assistant (very similar to PT) before she decides to pursue more education. She graduates next summer and should pass her certification in August. From the research we did, the PT/OT fields are excellent areas.

[FastEddy]

Originally Posted by schaabdl

My daughter is working first toward Occupational Therapy Assistant (very similar to PT) before she decides to pursue more education. ... From the research we did, the PT/OT fields are excellent areas.

Yes, any decent trade school is better than the g'ment edu-crap system.

[Rafael]

Originally Posted by David

No. I think Physical Therapy is a useful degree leading to a solid employment opportunity. If the major was in Peace Studies or Classics I might have a different take.

[David]

Peddlers of higher education make similar claims today about the value of a university degree. As with tech stocks and real estate prior to their respective busts, a measure of justification exists for that optimism. Holders of bachelor's college degrees do earn more over a lifetime than their non-college educated counterparts, though the exact figure is disputed.

But that reality is changing fast. As a practical economic necessity, a postsecondary education isn't what it used to be. Even more, as the federal government continues to intervene through student-aide subsidies, grants, and guaranteed student loans, higher education is heading for a bust after booming for decades.

SOURCE

[Bemused]

Originally Posted by David

Peddlers of higher education make similar claims today about the value of a university degree. As with tech stocks and real estate prior to their respective busts, a measure of justification exists for that optimism. Holders of bachelor's college degrees do earn more over a lifetime than their non-college educated counterparts, though the exact figure is disputed.

But that reality is changing fast. As a practical economic necessity, a postsecondary education isn't what it used to be. Even more, as the federal government continues to intervene through student-aide subsidies, grants, and guaranteed student loans, higher education is heading for a bust after booming for decades.

SOURCE

From the referenced article:

A stark illustration: the hordes of young adults in the Occupy movement who accepted the shackles of student-loan debt in exchange for worthless humanities degrees. Total student-loan debt in the United States now stands at $1 trillion, surpassing credit-card debt, and twentysomethings hold much of it.

As I counseled my kids when the issue of such choices arose, there is nothing inherently "worthless" about a humanities degree. There is unlimited need for people who can read with comprehension, write with clarity, speak using both. the problem continues to be the absolute lack of understanding about why a college education offers value, and how it applied to one's own goals in life.

From the referenced article:

There are several other trends that add to higher education's difficulties. One is the high number of college graduates. Generation Y is the most college-educated cohort in American history. Because the market is flooded with holders of bachelor's degrees, the value of those degrees is diluted.
To make matters worse, graduates with four-year degrees frequently re-enter college and pursue an advanced degree in response to job-market frustrations. It's possible that a master's degree could soon become the bachelor's degree of past years -- the bare minimum necessary to distinguish an applicant for a job.
Another problem is the rapid-fire increase in the cost of a higher education. According to the College Board, during the noughties tuition and fees at public four-year colleges and universities jumped an average of 5.6 percent per year beyond the rate of inflation. Those costs have surged almost 130 percent over the last two decades.
Still another difficulty is the objective value of a college degree. Students aren't learning much, and employers know it. Universities want to keep their paying customers (colloquially known as students), so grade inflation has increased. Today, a high GPA doesn't mean what it once did. (Yes, it's a cold reality: "Higher education is a business that does not necessarily have [students'] best interests at heart," writes Thomas Benton in The Chronicle of Higher Education.)

Completely lost in this discussion is what the nature and the goal of a college education may be.

Not too many years ago, the Powers That Be told us that we should all pursue educations in high tech, technology management, systems management because that was where the highest percentage growth was to be found. Nothing was said about the fact that in raw numbers, there would be a significant factor more of jobs in janitorial services created over the same period of time compared to new tech jobs.

I repeat my question posted earlier in this thread. Does your auto mechanic need a college degree? How about your plumber? How about the cable guy?

Never mind that such anti college organizations as the Wall Street Journal have regularly provided studies that call into question the value of a high cost college degree vis a vis any of the trades.

Education is SUPPOSED to make one a better person. Whatever that may mean. But in my life experience I have met machinists, carpenters, auto mechanics, and other blue collar types who read books other than Zane Grey novels, magazines other than Playboy, and watch The Learning Channel, the History Channel. the Home and Garden channel.

Fact is, the the government-higher education complex has DIS-served this nation and its citizens for decades now.

Long past time to re-think the issue.

[Bemused]

Originally Posted by David

Peddlers of higher education make similar claims today about the value of a university degree. As with tech stocks and real estate prior to their respective busts, a measure of justification exists for that optimism. Holders of bachelor's college degrees do earn more over a lifetime than their non-college educated counterparts, though the exact figure is disputed.

But that reality is changing fast. As a practical economic necessity, a postsecondary education isn't what it used to be. Even more, as the federal government continues to intervene through student-aide subsidies, grants, and guaranteed student loans, higher education is heading for a bust after booming for decades.

SOURCE

From the referenced article:

A stark illustration: the hordes of young adults in the Occupy movement who accepted the shackles of student-loan debt in exchange for worthless humanities degrees. Total student-loan debt in the United States now stands at $1 trillion, surpassing credit-card debt, and twentysomethings hold much of it.

As I counseled my kids when the issue of such choices arose, there is nothing inherently "worthless" about a humanities degree. There is unlimited need for people who can read with comprehension, write with clarity, speak using both. the problem continues to be the absolute lack of understanding about why a college education offers value, and how it applied to one's own goals in life.

From the referenced article:

There are several other trends that add to higher education's difficulties. One is the high number of college graduates. Generation Y is the most college-educated cohort in American history. Because the market is flooded with holders of bachelor's degrees, the value of those degrees is diluted.
To make matters worse, graduates with four-year degrees frequently re-enter college and pursue an advanced degree in response to job-market frustrations. It's possible that a master's degree could soon become the bachelor's degree of past years -- the bare minimum necessary to distinguish an applicant for a job.
Another problem is the rapid-fire increase in the cost of a higher education. According to the College Board, during the noughties tuition and fees at public four-year colleges and universities jumped an average of 5.6 percent per year beyond the rate of inflation. Those costs have surged almost 130 percent over the last two decades.
Still another difficulty is the objective value of a college degree. Students aren't learning much, and employers know it. Universities want to keep their paying customers (colloquially known as students), so grade inflation has increased. Today, a high GPA doesn't mean what it once did. (Yes, it's a cold reality: "Higher education is a business that does not necessarily have [students'] best interests at heart," writes Thomas Benton in The Chronicle of Higher Education.)

Completely lost in this discussion is what the nature and the goal of a college education may be.

Not too many years ago, the Powers That Be told us that we should all pursue educations in high tech, technology management, systems management because that was where the highest percentage growth was to be found. Nothing was said about the fact that in raw numbers, there would be a significant factor more of jobs in janitorial services created over the same period of time compared to new tech jobs.

I repeat my question posted earlier in this thread. Does your auto mechanic need a college degree? How about your plumber? How about the cable guy?

Never mind that such anti college organizations as the Wall Street Journal have regularly provided studies that call into question the value of a high cost college degree vis a vis any of the trades.

Education is SUPPOSED to make one a better person. Whatever that may mean. But in my life experience I have met machinists, carpenters, auto mechanics, and other blue collar types who read books other than Zane Grey novels, magazines other than Playboy, and watch The Learning Channel, the History Channel. the Home and Garden channel.

Fact is, the the government-higher education complex has DIS-served this nation and its citizens for decades now.

Long past time to re-think the issue.