The Bible and Taxation

[FoundingFather]

Just stumbled upon it and read it through. Makes a lot of sense.

http://thesteadyconservative.com/wor...ible-on-taxes/

[jtdc]

Decent analysis! I don't expect Obama to reference it though.

[schaabdl]

I agree and have stated these same tenets within various groups. You might take note the taxation (tithe) was on income and not consumption.

[jtdc]

Originally Posted by schaabdl

You might take note the taxation (tithe) was on income and not consumption.

Like so many, you are looking for support for what you want in the Bible? I didn't see the writer specify. He did mention the Tithe seemed to be based on a government, not religion separately. The Tithe would seem to be an appropriate rate for government tax. But if I tithe to government, tithe to religion, tithe to the union, you see, there is no limit to those who would justify their hands in your pocket.

The one take I disagree with was about taxes on capital gains. He didn't support that with Biblical reference. It is an addiction like welfare. If you differentiate between income and consumption, then capital gains is income and should be taxed. But like religions, they feel people must be bribed to be charitable. So religions seek exemption from tax to encourage generosity. Along the same line he feels people would not invest if they have to pay tax on the amount they earn.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by jtdc

Like so many, you are looking for support for what you want in the Bible? I didn't see the writer specify. He did mention the Tithe seemed to be based on a government, not religion separately. The Tithe would seem to be an appropriate rate for government tax. But if I tithe to government, tithe to religion, tithe to the union, you see, there is no limit to those who would justify their hands in your pocket.

The one take I disagree with was about taxes on capital gains. He didn't support that with Biblical reference. It is an addiction like welfare. If you differentiate between income and consumption, then capital gains is income and should be taxed. But like religions, they feel people must be bribed to be charitable. So religions seek exemption from tax to encourage generosity. Along the same line he feels people would not invest if they have to pay tax on the amount they earn.

Not really. Christians are not commanded to tithe. So giving is voluntary, like everything else in real Christianity. Obviously, God doesn't need our money, and can do everything without any help from us at all. The tithe was the primary income to the tribe of Levi, who had pastorial duties, which is why it was a commandment in the Old Testament, which had other monetary commands.

The idea that relates government to Christian giving is a doctrine of The religious left! The basic doctrine is that government confiscates about 50% or higher of income and then IT promotes charity. We all know it's a scam, because the charity is used to create dependance and buy votes for those in power. Those that become dependant are blackmailed into continuing the scam, as they are threatened with the end of their benefits. Of course, the end of thast practice is either slavery or economic collapse.

[jtdc]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Not really. Christians are not commanded to tithe. So giving is voluntary, like everything else in real Christianity.

It wasn't about being forced, it was about the amount.

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Obviously, God doesn't need our money, and can do everything without any help from us at all.

Since he isn't doing anything for the poor, maybe he needs a bribe too.

Originally Posted by Rifleman

The idea that relates government to Christian giving is a doctrine of The religious left!

It is the doctrine of "The One" who is an expert on Constitutional law and, now, Hebrew Law as well.

Originally Posted by Rifleman

The basic doctrine is that government confiscates about 50% or higher of income and then IT promotes charity. We all know it's a scam, because the charity is used to create dependance and buy votes for those in power.

It remains that the argument I referred to is that without deductions, tax discounts or incentives, all charity would end and people would not invest money they have.

[schaabdl]

I wasn't trying to say tithing was equivalent taxation but that it was based on income - adding to someone's opinion is your typical MO. Relative to capital gains - discussed before - already taxed when the income was earned.

[jtdc]

Originally Posted by schaabdl

Relative to capital gains - discussed before - already taxed when the income was earned.

Wrong again. The Capital Gains was not taxed. It is new income!

[schaabdl]

BS - you disagreed with Cavuto on this and you are still wrong. Have a nice day.

[jtdc]

Originally Posted by schaabdl

BS - you disagreed with Cavuto on this and you are still wrong.

Much as I like Cavuto, his business is business. So he sees it from that perspective. He's wrong now and then. As I said, income is income!

If I am a laborer, I invest in my body so I can work. I get a return on that investment which is taxed. When I get paid profit for that investment, why should it be worth any less or more than greenbacks?

Originally Posted by schaabdl

Have a nice day.

I guess that's your last word.

[pauli]

The Old Testament is to be used as an example for New Testament Christians. I cannot help but cringe when I hear the Socialist Christians preach that we are not obligated to the the Old Law, when Jesus Christ said the he came to fulfill the Old Law not to do away with it.
In Genesis we have a clear example of government tax

33 “And now let Pharaoh look for a discerning and wise man and put him in charge of the land of Egypt. 34 Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of Egypt during the seven years of abundance. 35 They should collect all the food of these good years that are coming and store up the grain under the authority of Pharaoh, to be kept in the cities for food. 36 This food should be held in reserve for the country, to be used during the seven years of famine that will come upon Egypt, so that the country may not be ruined by the famine.”

And also notable is Joseph and Egypt did not give away these food stores (contrary to the teachings of maybe 90% of the Christian Churches today) They sold the food to the needy

56 When the famine had spread over the whole country, Joseph opened the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe throughout Egypt. 57 And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.

And when the people ran out of money they did not give away the food

14 Joseph collected all the money that was to be found in Egypt and Canaan in payment for the grain they were buying, and he brought it to Pharaoh’s palace. 15 When the money of the people of Egypt and Canaan was gone, all Egypt came to Joseph and said, “Give us food. Why should we die before your eyes? Our money is used up.”
16 “Then bring your livestock,” said Joseph. “I will sell you food in exchange for your livestock, since your money is gone.” 17 So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and he gave them food in exchange for their horses, their sheep and goats, their cattle and donkeys. And he brought them through that year with food in exchange for all their livestock.

and when all the livestock was gone they still did not give away the food

18 When that year was over, they came to him the following year and said, “We cannot hide from our lord the fact that since our money is gone and our livestock belongs to you, there is nothing left for our lord except our bodies and our land. 19 Why should we perish before your eyes—we and our land as well? Buy us and our land in exchange for food, and we with our land will be in bondage to Pharaoh. Give us seed so that we may live and not die, and that the land may not become desolate.”

20 So Joseph bought all the land in Egypt for Pharaoh. The Egyptians, one and all, sold their fields, because the famine was too severe for them. The land became Pharaoh’s, 21 and Joseph reduced the people to servitude,[c] from one end of Egypt to the other.

And after all this they still did not give away the food.

23 Joseph said to the people, “Now that I have bought you and your land today for Pharaoh, here is seed for you so you can plant the ground. 24 But when the crop comes in, give a fifth of it to Pharaoh. The other four-fifths you may keep as seed for the fields and as food for yourselves and your households and your children.”

25 “You have saved our lives,” they said. “May we find favor in the eyes of our lord; we will be in bondage to Pharaoh.”

26 So Joseph established it as a law concerning land in Egypt—still in force today—that a fifth of the produce belongs to Pharaoh

This is not taught in most Congregations today and I doubt it is taught in most Synagoges, because Socialism has crept into, even our very sources of truth.

[schaabdl]

Probably because I don't think there are many Pharaohs running about these days. But an anomaly, yes I've heard the teachings and afterward told the pastor the same thing - you did note that everyone paid the tax - no deductions, one rate. I don't think it is the number as much as it is the concept - yes, a government can tax but equality under the law in very simplistic language is one rate, one time. KISS works when tried.

[pauli]

Remember the pharoh had nothing to do with the decision to tax 20%. What makes this all work for the the Egyptians is it was God inspired. The Egyptians were feeding the world at this time, not unlike the United States of America. How long would the Egyptians have lasted the famine if they gave away the food? And their own workforce would have been destroyed by going on welfare. Life was more difficult then of course, but taking away the Blessing of work would have been a greater cruelty.

[jtdc]

Originally Posted by pauli

Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of Egypt during the seven years of abundance.

I like the tithe as the tax rate better than the fifth.

But,

This food should be held in reserve for the country, to be used during the seven years of famine that will come upon Egypt, so that the country may not be ruined by the famine.”

Sort of condoning welfare, social security and like. So the actual tax by government is a whole lot less that that fifth.

Originally Posted by pauli

And also notable is Joseph and Egypt did not give away these food stores (contrary to the teachings of maybe 90% of the Christian Churches today) They sold the food to the needy

Perhaps I spoke too soon.

[FoundingFather]

"Taketh thee these food stamps to the grain store and purchase grain for thy family. Thus you will truly be in bondage."

More like de-Nile....

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by pauli

The Old Testament is to be used as an example for New Testament Christians. I cannot help but cringe when I hear the Socialist Christians preach that we are not obligated to the the Old Law, when Jesus Christ said the he came to fulfill the Old Law not to do away with it.

Look, I'm not a socialist, and you happen to be wrong about what you are saying here. Converted Jews who went around the Roman Empire and tried to force Gentile Christians to follow the Old Law were a major problem and headache for Paul.

[quote]Acts 15:6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”....

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f] —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.[quote]

Therefore, there is no obligation for Christian to follow the Mosaic law and this includes.... Tithing.

Contrast, Christians did not give away money and food to the general public, they only gave it to other Christians, who were actually in need. And early Christians generally gave way more than 10%, but they did so voluntarily. Socialism and all that nonsense about having the government confiscate money from the general public and conduct charity themselves is purely a creation of the Christian left.

[FastEddy]

As Pauli noted above:

"[Genesis] 33 And now let Pharaoh look for a discerning and wise man and put him in charge of the land of Egypt. 34 Let Pharaoh appoint commissioners over the land to take a fifth of the harvest of Egypt during the seven years of abundance. 35 They should collect all the food of these good years that are coming and store up the grain under the authority of Pharaoh, to be kept in the cities for food. 36 This food should be held in reserve for the country, to be used during the seven years of famine that will come upon Egypt, so that the country may not be ruined by the famine. ..."

.....

Here in more modern times:

"EXODUS: CALIFORNIA TAX REVENUE PLUNGES BY 22%" - BreitBart.com - March 12, 2012

"State Controller John Chaing continues to uphold the California Great Seal Motto of “Eureka”, i.e., 'I have found it'. But what Chaing is finding as Controller is that California’s economy as measured by tax revenues is still tanking. Compared to last year, State tax collections for February shriveled by $1.2 billion or 22%. The deterioration is more than double the shocking $535 million reported decline for last month. The cumulative fiscal year decline is $6.1 billion or down 11% versus this period in 2011. ...

... California Governor Jerry Brown’s answer to the State’s failing economy and crumbling tax revenue is to place a $6 billion tax increase initiative on the ballot to support K-12 public schools. He promises to only “temporarily” raise personal income rates by 25% on any of the rich folk who haven’t already left. ..."

....

Anyway, the way I read it is that when the Pharaoh began pleading for more and more revenue, Moses offered to do what amounts to barter exchanges to dodge Pharaoh's cries for more taxes on the food ... and when that failed, He took the Children and headed east into the desert ... Maybe I'm leaping to a hasty conclusion from this, but it seems that Californians are doing much the same and heading east into the desert of Nevada or for Texas.

[Bemused]

Originally Posted by pauli

And also notable is Joseph and Egypt did not give away these food stores (contrary to the teachings of maybe 90% of the Christian Churches today) They sold the food to needy

Sigh.

Those who knew Jesus, or knew those who knew Jesus, did NOT sell food to the poor. The first century Christians GAVE food to the poor. THAT was the practice of the early Christians, and one of their primary functions.

I HATE it when people try to make out that Jesus was a capitalist and that capitalist principals were the practice of the early Christians.

[pauli]

Originally Posted by Bemused

Sigh.

Those who knew Jesus, or knew those who knew Jesus, did NOT sell food to the poor. The first century Christians GAVE food to the poor. THAT was the practice of the early Christians, and one of their primary functions.

I HATE it when people try to make out that Jesus was a capitalist and that capitalist principals were the practice of the early Christians.

I think people are confusing God's example of 20% tax for the government with tithing to the Church.(Tithing is a base, the old law required more that 23% not 10%). They are not related, and the tax is an example, it was not written in stone. And God's example did not include giving it away. Christ's example is different and it was give to the government what they ask, what Christ did not have to tell you, is to vote for the candidate who requires less of a tax. I find it so amusing that so many Christians are unable or just outright refuse to study or even read the scripture for themselves. When you inform most Christians what the word actually says they tend to bury their heads in the sand or try to argue against the word of God.

[pauli]

[quote=Rifleman;304945]Look, I'm not a socialist, and you happen to be wrong about what you are saying here. Converted Jews who went around the Roman Empire and tried to force Gentile Christians to follow the Old Law were a major problem and headache for Paul.

[quote

Rifleman, I missed your reply here, but I understand you are definetly not a Socialist. And I agree with you on the Law with maybe one exception, that we possibly could agree on. When I mention Christ fufilling the old Law, I mean that of course we are not bound by the the tenants of the old Law that do not impede our obeidence to God. For instance Micah 6:8 tells us what is required of us and the New Law does not cancel this out. When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees what is the greatest Commandment he gave two and if any Christian only obeyed those two laws, he would likely be so far ahead of anyone else. The dailey Laws about washing your hands after going to the market are just good common sense laws that will not hurt you if you continue to obey them. I think what happens with many is understanding that if you don't go to Church on Sunday you are going to hell, when the Scripture does not command you to do this. Some take tradition in their Church and somehow extropolate that to mean that it is a Commandment of some kind. What is important is John 5:22 the Old Law did not have the Son and the Holy Spirit and the Salvation offered by them and the "New Law" God promised the Son in many Scriptures in the Old Testament and a Law that would "live" inside of us. Rifleman, I hope that I did not misspeak on the Scripture previously, and if I did, I apoligize.